Progressive Justice

Hi Moriji,

It seems to me that your question presumes two things:

punishment is the appropriate response to actions not in agreement with laws. That begs the question: as progressives, what should we be concerned first and foremost with: punishment or justice? Sometimes, punishment is not justice. But justice is always justice - and may, in fact, involve dissuasive measures. "Punishment" seems to me to involve a moral dimension that may not be necessary.


To that general question, I'd answer that the appropriate response would vary greatly according to the situations and the appropriateness - fairness - of the laws involved.

Is this a general question or are you concerned with certain issues in particular? At first sight, the question seems to me framed in conservative terms: "you break the law, you get punished, period".

Redressing wrongs

Regards,

Luis.

Hi Moriji,

I see two assumptions embedded in your question:

1. Punishment is the appropriate response to actions not in agreement with laws
2. Punishment is justice

My first impression is that those two assumptions are more consistent with a Strict Father view of justice than that of a Nurturant Parent.

Progressive justice concerns itself with patiently nurturing responsible behavior towards the community. Laws consistent with that vision can be considered fair. Actions not in accordance with those fair laws should be sanctioned, as long as the sanctions do indeed benefit the whole community, including the sanctioned individuals and their loved ones.

Regards,

Luis.

Sorry for the double post. Please disregard the first one.

I just didn't know any other way to frame it, that's why I asked...

But I want more specific answers. Someone steals money. Someone kills someone. Someone gets a speeding ticket. Someone breaks the Constitution. What should happen to these people in the progressive world view? Is jail acceptable in some conditions? Fines? Education? Therapy? Or what exactly?

It's a good question. I guess we could look at what society wants to accomplish after someone commits a crime (btw, what's the progressive view of crime?). Some ideas

1. Help the victim, help people who have been hurt in some way by the crime
2. Make sure the crime doesn't happen again
3. More?

Things that has to do with 2:

-therapy
-restraining the person physically until he/she isn't a direct threat
-helping the person get a job and maybe a life/ friends/ purpose...
-more?

The restraining is probably perceived by the person as a punishment.
What do you think?

Rikard

The victim(s) should be compensated if possible. For theft, they should be repaid. By whom? Most likely the one who committed the crime. Through work, either in or out of prison. Murder is pretty serious. Obviously, someone who commits murder would most likely need to be isolated until he or she is ready to reenter society. Sociopathic behavior is hard to deal with. Maybe we should do away with giving people a set amount of time to serve in prison, but release them only when they are ready. Those who break laws in regards to performing some activity can have their licenses revoked and sent back for retraining. Others who abuse their position of authority should obviously have their authority taken away from them.

By the way, isn't labeling someone a "criminal" antithetical to progressivism?

1. containment/segregation
   2. punishment/retribution
   3. restitution
   
   It seems to me that the American system of justice is built on l) and 2), and I see these as essentially conservative solutions. The downsides to the first two are well known--prisons may remove threats from the street, but they also teach inmates to view themselves as social misfits and outcasts, and promote resentment of authority and government. In short, prisons create better criminals. Punishment within the prison system usually only accomplishes more of the same.
   
   That doesn't mean dangerous offenders shouldn't be incarcerated, but the price in money and social consequences should be recognized and nobody should imagine incarceration and punishment are an adequate social response to the problems of lawbreaking and antisocial behavior. Moreover, the whole issue of deciding who's dangerous and needs confinement is not a matter of scientific analysis or ascertaining some "reality," but of imposing moral judgments and values.
   
   Every once and awhile, I read about some state or local court's attempt to incorporate restitution into its ruling. This seems to me to be more consistent with progressive values. Maybe it's a teen who was required to pay for repainting the car he sprayed with graffiti, or the drunk driver who was ordered to discuss his drinking problem and what he's doing about it at ten high school assemblies.
   
   Incarceration and punishment may be necessary responses to serious law breaking, and restitution is not a replacement for either. It is a third social response which may avoid some of the negative consequences of the first two, and have some potentially positive outcomes incarceration and punishment lack. I think it should be used far more often; I wonder why it isn't.

That's why I posted this, because the more I thought of it, the more I realized that our justice system is mostly based on punishment, which is a conservative solution to dealing with problems. It is so embedded into our culture that I had a hard time trying to find a progressive way of dealing with law breaking.

I would like to bring up two real life examples. One is something I went through, and the other is a longtime friend of mine that I knew from kindergarten. Try to think of what would be the progressive way of dealing with these acts.

First about me. Nine years ago I got a DUI. It was the only time in my life I've been arrested. Ever been handcuffed and tied to a bench? Not fun. This affected me profoundly and made me do a lot of soul searching. I decided that alcohol wasn't worth the trouble and that I had been using it as a means of escape and it was time for me to deal with my life so that I wouldn't feel the need to use it as a way of dealing with stress. I wanted to reshape my life so that I would have no need to ever turn to booze, as life sober would be rewarding in itself.

But this I did on my own. What the justice system did was suspend my license for 4 months, increasing my auto insurance for the next 7 years, making me go to DUI classes, and making me pay a heft fee of over a thousand dollars. In my opinion, this punishment was too harsh. The soul searching I did was in spite of this.

I also found out that my outlook was in the minority. In the DUI class, only me and this other girl realized that we had reached a point where our drinking had put us in danger of injuring ourselves and others. The vast majority complained about the corrupt police, being in the wrong place at the wrong time, that they weren't really drunk, etc. Regardless of whether the police is corrupt or not or whether they just happened to get caught or how intoxicated they were at the time, the fact is they broke the law and were impaired enough to have killed someone on the road, which would have been far more serious. But this seemed to go right over the heads of most, sadly enough. So it wouldn't surprise at all if the vast majority are now on their second or third DUI.

The second example I would like to bring up is about a friend of mine I've known since kindergarten. He's always been very impulsive. He has spent the majority of his life behind bars. It started out with dealing drugs which he got a few years behind bars for. But the more serious part was that while in jail, he and this other inmate tried to pay another inmate to go and murder the police officer who had arrested them. Now this is pretty shocking and serious stuff.

He came out in 1998, only to end back in after 6 months for dealing drugs again. Then he came out in 2005, but dealt drugs again and went back. Now he just came back out a month or two ago and is now on 24/7 surveillance by satellite. He is monitored and has to go to AA and take medications, etc. Also, he finally got a legitimate job working the fork lift.

Will he be able to stay out this time? I'm not so sure. He still has problems controlling himself.

So what would progressives do differently in dealing with someone who got a DUI or someone who dealt drugs and tried to order a murder of a cop? I've given two real life examples. I'd be interested in hearing what the progression solution to these two situations would look like.